Note: This podcast was transcribed by someone who goes by \u201cZero\u201d.<\/p>\n
Original audio.<\/a><\/p>\n Candice: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: I want to educate the globe and the world that there are individuals who have an attraction to children, who have no desire to sexually harm a child ever at all. They really, just like you, want support in being able to live and again, \u201cnormal\u201d is a relative term, but in quotes even, \u201ca relatively normal life,\u201d right? With this label and this stigma and so, yeah, that is definitely why I am passionate about interviewing those that are anti-contact pedophiles and at some point I might say okay let\u2019s interview pro-contact to create, and a lot of people on Twitter will say everyone deserves a voice and here are all the sides. I\u2019m open to that. Right now this is my focus. I do also want to say, and I know it can be nerve-wracking being interviewed on the podcast, and so I appreciate you being here. When you were talking about teenagers, the risk of potential suicide based on attraction, you kind of giggled and I want our listeners to know, and I\u2019m going to speak for you on this so you definitely add in, but I know that you\u2019re not making light of that.<\/p>\n Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: Candice: Beth: ADDENDUM Thank you for listening to this week\u2019s podcast. Please visit www.thepreventionproject.org<\/a> to learn more about our project and programs. Please remember to subscribe to our podcast at www.thepreventionpodcast.com<\/a> or iTunes. See you next time!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Note: This podcast was transcribed by someone who goes by \u201cZero\u201d. Original audio. Candice: Welcome to The Prevention Podcast. I\u2019m your host Candice Christiansen. Our goal at The Prevention Podcast is to talk about dicey, controversial issues related to preventing sexual abuse. Why? Because it needs to be said. Topics include the biology of pedophilia,…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":516,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[4,6],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"\n
\nWelcome to The Prevention Podcast. I\u2019m your host Candice Christiansen. Our goal at The Prevention Podcast is to talk about dicey, controversial issues related to preventing sexual abuse. Why? Because it needs to be said. Topics include the biology of pedophilia, risk, need, and responsivity principles related to non-contact and contact sex offenders, researchers in the field of sex offender treatment, and more. Join us biweekly and let\u2019s talk about it.<\/p>\n
\nWelcome to The Prevention Podcast. I\u2019m your host Candice Christiansen. This has been such a phenomenal experience being able to interview as many people, men and women, researchers, so on and so forth, who either have pedophilia or are interested in studying and researching and advocating for pedophiles. Today I am really excited because we had started out with a female anti-contact, non-offending pedophile by the alias \u201cEmma\u201d when we first launched our podcast back in January. And today we have Beth on the call who is another anti-contact, non-offending female pedophile. So I want to welcome you to our podcast, Beth.<\/p>\n
\nThank you. Hello.<\/p>\n
\nThank you so much for being willing to speak about your experience being an anti-contact, non-offending pedophile.<\/p>\n
\nYou\u2019re welcome.<\/p>\n
\nWe\u2019ll just go ahead and jump right in. I\u2019m guessing that this may be new, having you on a podcast speaking out to the entire world. I mean, we\u2019re now downloaded in 38 countries so you will be global. So my guess, is this new for you to be sharing your story with the world?<\/p>\n
\nI mean not really. Honestly I\u2019ve been blogging for years. I don\u2019t do it as much any more, but yeah, I mean I\u2019ve talked about my experience a lot and talking about it has been very helpful in terms of my own mental health and all that.<\/p>\n
\nSay more about that because that is definitely something that we are advocates for at The Prevention Project. You know, wanting to give that mental health support to folks with pedophilia, especially those who say, \u201cYou know what, I have this attraction. I don\u2019t want to hurt anybody, but I am suicidal at times, I\u2019m lonely, I feel depressed.\u201d So maybe you could share that too, like how it has been beneficial for you being able to blog and talk about it?<\/p>\n
\nSo blogging publicly allows you to sort of like find a community and you can get resources from those people that have sort of figured it out how to deal with certain things and cope. And you can hold each other accountable because sometimes it\u2019s hard to figure out like what you believe as you start you know dealing with this.<\/p>\n
\nYeah I appreciate you saying that because we are really active on our Prevention Twitter and we are so thankful that VirPed is out there. VirPed is I would say is the largest peer forum across the entire globe that offers support to anticontact pedophiles and they have really come under fire lately by trolls that just make these assumptions that you know when there\u2019s this peer support that what\u2019s being discussed is how to harm a child or so on and so forth. And I know that that\u2019s not what happens and it sounds like you know that that\u2019s not what happens. So I just wanted to plug VirPed, but I\u2019d also love your thoughts on that, when people are coming out and saying these forums are harming children and so on and so forth. What would you say to that?<\/p>\n
\nIt doesn\u2019t make any sense to me. I\u2019ve explained to people before that when you\u2019re silencing the group that\u2019s trying to help other pedophiles in not offending, then you\u2019re just pushing them into the shadows. And I want to explain that I hear people saying like \u201cThat sounds like a threat. That sounds like you\u2019re saying that if we don\u2019t tolerate this then you\u2019re going to like offend and it\u2019s not a threat, it\u2019s a plea. I\u2019m pleading that you allow this space to exist so that when young people realize what they are they have a space to go to and learn and get resources to not offend.<\/p>\n
\nWell yeah and I love that you say it\u2019s a plea, really. On our website we talk about that. Our motto says everyone deserves support. Everyone is safer when everyone has support. And I think about it this way: we have a society that doesn\u2019t want to admit that teenagers can have attractions to children, right?<\/p>\n
\nYeah and you know within sort of like a community in talking to a lot of people and we\u2019ve done polls and people realize it as early as 12, 13 and usually it\u2019s around 15 or 16.<\/p>\n
\nI just appreciate you saying that because we have heard I believe it\u2019s every single individual who has been on our podcast has said that. That it\u2019s started out in adolescence. But again I think we have just this assumption from a large part of society that thinks that it\u2019s this dirty old man in a van that is waiting to snatch up children and harm them. And so with that I would love to have you share your story about when you knew that you had an attraction. And just share whatever you feel comfortable sharing. Does that sound okay?<\/p>\n
\nYeah. That\u2019s totally fine. So in high school I started to sort of develop a \u201ctype,\u201d I think (I\u2019m a lesbian), to a point where my friend actually said to me, my best friend said to me \u201cYou know, all of the girls that you like look like they haven\u2019t hit puberty yet. What\u2019s up with that?\u201d And I was like, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d So that just sort of went on until senior year and around that time I had made some sort of blog post. I\u2019ve always been interested in mental health and criminology and things like that. And I made a post that was like, I don\u2019t really understand why we treat pedophiles this way, you know, it\u2019s a mental illness, it should be treated, blah blah blah. And someone named Max, who is one of my best friends to this day, sent me a direct message and he was like, \u201cYou know it\u2019s not really a mental illness.\u201d And he sort of explained to me how it\u2019s a sexuality and that there\u2019s plenty of people that don\u2019t want to offend. And really humanized that sort of person for me and I could, at that point, begin to associate it with myself. It stopped being this monster.<\/p>\n
\nYou know I agree that it\u2019s not about mental illness. It\u2019s not about (one) being a monster, which again is what we see so often on Twitter. The trolls threatening people, telling them that they should kill themselves. \u201cThey\u2019re monsters. Stay away from our kids.\u201d This is about an age orientation. This is a sexual attraction to an age. It\u2019s like a sexual, age orientation as Michael Seto calls it. So that\u2019s what I hear you saying, is that you realized \u201cWow! You know I have an attraction to this age in particular. It doesn\u2019t mean that I have a mental illness. Some people might think that.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nYeah. And it seemed impossible that that\u2019s what I could be because it was so, you know. I saw myself as a good person and it had been so ingrained in me that if you\u2019re a pedophile you\u2019re not a good person. So as soon as I met someone who I could see as a good person and who identified as a pedophile, it was just like, it hit me.<\/p>\n
\nYeah. When I think back historically to different groups of people that have been put into a minority position by society, this is another one of the groups of people, and I\u2019m trying to say it slowly and be very sensitive to language because we know \u2026 in the LGBT community, this is something that, I\u2019m not saying \u201cthis,\u201d being pedophilia, I\u2019m saying\u200a\u2014\u200ajudgment, and othering, and hatred, and so on and so forth. And in the LGBTQ community, for instance, has been something that\u2019s been around for a very long time. Same when we look at racial discrimination, and so I want to be sensitive when I say this and I also want our world to know that this label \u201cpedophilia,\u201d has been used just as this automatic assumption when someone ends up in the media or there\u2019s a news story about someone who has sexually offended against a child or sexually abused a child \u2026 the automatic words that you see or I read: \u201cThis is a pedophile.\u201d Even if it is against a teenager, which is an ephebophile, not a pedophile.<\/p>\n
\nRight. And even if that person\u2019s primary victim base isn\u2019t all children people don\u2019t talk about the fact that a lot of child molesters, if not possibly most, aren\u2019t attracted to children.<\/p>\n
\nYes and there\u2019s been research that supports that. And I know that people will argue this and that is okay. My hope is the more that we can talk about it we can create some understanding that a child molester or someone who sexually assaults anyone is not automatically a pedophile. That that is a label that fits with what we\u2019re calling an attraction. It\u2019s an attraction. Just because someone has an attraction does not automatically mean they are destined or absolutely going to harm a child. So I know we just spent some time on that, but it\u2019s something that I see it daily with the folks on our Twitter account, on our Twitter page. And they are arguing with people that are just making these assumptions, and don\u2019t get it, even when we post and say \u201canti-contact non-offending,\u201d before the word pedophile. People can\u2019t even grasp that.<\/p>\n
\nYeah and that\u2019s a matter of changing our language. It\u2019s important that when we have these discussions we\u2019re using words with their correct definition. And it\u2019s especially dangerous for you know as we talked about before, when people begin to realize that they\u2019re pedophiles, when they\u2019re this young and that gets so ingrained in their head, like, \u201cWell I guess I\u2019m just going to be a child molester one day. I guess I don\u2019t have a choice because that\u2019s the only way in which this word is used.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nWell I can hear, I could hear, you know, people that want to argue that, say \u201cWell that\u2019s just an excuse and now you\u2019re sounding like a victim.\u201d What I\u2019m hearing is you\u2019re not saying, \u201cSo that means I\u2019m not going to harm someone.\u201d You\u2019re saying, there still is this belief that\u2019s almost implanted into your brain that \u201cWell I\u2019m a monster who\u2019s destined to harm kids.\u201d And so it doesn\u2019t mean that you\u2019re going to (when you read that), but it definitely effects your mental health.<\/p>\n
\nOh absolutely and there\u2019s you know one of two consequences to it. One of it being that they develop really awful depression and might end up killing themselves, and you\u2019ve essentially ended up killing an innocent teenager and the other is that they have to sort of justify this idea that \u201cWell, if I\u2019m destined I have to still be a good person, though. I have to have like an excuse for that.\u201d And they, you know I don\u2019t know how many pro-contacts that you\u2019ve talked to, but they just sort of do these logical backflips to justify the idea that they\u2019re not a bad person instead of just telling themselves that they\u2019re not a bad person whether they\u2019re attracted to kids or not.<\/p>\n
\nWe actually have not spoken with pro-contact pedophiles. We\u2019ve had people reach out to us that are pro-contact and my response, and I\u2019ll say this for those that are pro-contact listening is that there\u2019s a method and a reason for why I\u2019m doing this, and why specifically I want to talk to and interview anti-contact pedophiles. At some point, I might change my mind. I am a trauma survivor. I\u2019ve been clear about that. As someone that is very passionate about prevention and providing mental health support to those individuals who say \u201cI have this attraction. I don\u2019t want to harm anybody.\u201d That\u2019s really right now where I want to continue my focus, especially with our MAPs program at the Prevention Project.<\/p>\n
\nOh God no! Absolutely not. I\u2019m sorry. It\u2019s a nervous giggle. I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n
\nAnd that\u2019s what I thought. I mean, I just \u2026 there\u2019s so much that people can take from these interviews and I really want people to hear both you and I say \u2026 you know teens are at risk. We have young people who have this attraction that don\u2019t have the support yet. That don\u2019t have access to the peer forums and the communities and the therapy, and are terrified to come forward, and who sadly some do end up taking their lives because they have an attraction and feel like a monster and feel hopeless, and so one of the reasons again why we\u2019re doing this is in hopes that if there\u2019s one teenager that can hear us that has an attraction. That can hear us say you\u2019re not alone, and you know that you have an attraction, you don\u2019t want to harm anyone. Reach out to us. There is hope and there\u2019s help. That\u2019s the goal. I feel like we\u2019ve reached one person, then if that one person can be that teenager. So I just wanted to add that in.<\/p>\n
\nYeah it\u2019s definitely serious. I\u2019ve certainly been suicidal at one point or another, and there\u2019s even someone that I knew online for a little bit that killed himself.<\/p>\n
\nYeah I think that\u2019s definitely something that we want to get across to the global community that again, people have different attractions and teenagers are coming forward. This is not just the man (adult male in his sixties in the alleyway waiting to snatch up children). That is a myth. There are young men and young women who have this attraction and so we need to take that into consideration. You know, one of the things, Beth, I have a dear friend and colleague whose an expert in trauma therapy and DID especially, which is dissociative identity disorder, and we were talking about minor attracted persons and pedophilia, and she recently said to me, \u201cHave you seen the article that talks about individuals who end up having minor attractions having a history of trauma?\u201d And I said I haven\u2019t seen that article, however we have definitely treated many individuals, men and women (millennials), who have minor attractions, pedophilia especially or specifically, who can go back into their history and point out these periods of time at certain ages where they experienced shame, where they experienced trauma, where they experienced a devastating event that led to arrested development at that age and then as they grew older they found themselves attracted to that same age. And so, Beth, what are your thoughts on that?<\/p>\n
\nI haven\u2019t experienced that sort of significant sexual trauma. I\u2019ve met people that have and attribute that to their sexuality and I\u2019ve met people that have and don\u2019t attribute it at all\u200a\u2014\u200athey don\u2019t think it\u2019s anything to do with it, but sometimes I think about that sort of phase in my life where I began to realize I liked girls my age and the girl that made me realize that has sort of remained a type throughout my life. I don\u2019t know if that wasn\u2019t just sort of, like a telling of the future or if it was actually a cause. I really don\u2019t think that it\u2019s a cause.<\/p>\n
\nThere has been some preliminary research that has shown some biological underpinnings for individuals with pedophilia and so, there\u2019s also, I remember reading this research article about a man who developed a tumor in his brain and because of where it was at in the brain he actually developed pedophilic interest, and so when they removed the tumor his pedophilic interest went away. And so I think there definitely it\u2019s not black and white. I think there are the biological underpinnings. I do think for some they can go back and pinpoint that arrested development. We see that quite a bit. And we also want to acknowledge that for someone who says \u201cI have an emotional attraction to a child and\/or a physical attraction,\u201d our job isn\u2019t to say, to shame that person. If someone\u2019s coming to our program for help we are not going to shame that person. Our job is to support them in what they\u2019re coming to get support in, whether it\u2019s \u201cI need to get tools so that I don\u2019t kill myself. I need to learn how to have a relationship with my partner. I want to be able to manage my fantasies. And so have you sought help in any of these stages in your process where you went to a therapist, and if so what was that experience like?<\/p>\n
\nWell I\u2019ve been through a lot of therapists, but the first one that I had I didn\u2019t have it managed by myself very well and I decided that I did probably need to come out to her and she\u2019s the only one I\u2019ve come out to. So when I did I essentially came in like the second session \u2019cause I just wanted to get it over with and said \u2026 I either said \u201cI\u2019m attracted to children or I\u2019m a pedophile\u201d \u2026 I don\u2019t remember. And I said, \u201cAre you still comfortable working with me?\u201d And she just kind of stared at me and she was like \u201cNo,\u201d and I was like, \u201cOkay,\u201d and like (I) tried to rush out of the room, and she was like, \u201cWait, wait, wait. I don\u2019t understand. Have you hurt a child?\u201d \u201cNo, no I don\u2019t want to do that. I never want to do that.\u201d And she\u2019s like, \u201cOh well that\u2019s a completely different story.\u201d So yeah I kept working with her. At the time I was living with children, not like every day, like they were over on the weekend and that was very, very difficult. I was developing some really severe anxiety around them, even things like intrusive thoughts and intrusive arousal, and went to her with those problems and she essentially just taught me mindfulness and it helped significantly \u2026 so I definitely want to put that out as something if you\u2019re struggling with your attraction practice some mindfulness. You\u2019d be surprised how much it helps.<\/p>\n
\nWhen you say mindfulness say more about that. I know what that is; I want our global community to hear from you what that is.<\/p>\n
\nSure, yeah, so it\u2019s sort of just reevaluating where you are and accepting it \u2026 not judging it, letting it come in and out. If you\u2019re feeling something in your mind or in your body don\u2019t try to push it away. Just say \u201cIt is what it is,\u201d and go about your day.<\/p>\n
\nI\u2019ll add to that because I think that\u2019s a great way to explain it: presencing\u200a\u2014\u200abeing present to the moment and to the experience. And so noticing \u201cWow. I\u2019m here right now. I\u2019m driving my car. I\u2019m having this thought and okay, I\u2019m aware that I\u2019m having this thought and you know what? I don\u2019t have to do anything with the thought. I can acknowledge it. Now I\u2019m going to continue driving and go to the destination that I am going to.\u201d And we definitely teach regulation tools for self-regulating (that anxiety when it comes up). So what I mean by that is how can you calm your nervous system down when you become hyper-aroused or in a fight-or-flight, anxious state because for so many people such as yourself, and you can correct me if I\u2019m off base here, what we hear often is it\u2019s actually very anxiety-provoking and very troubling and worrisome when an individual with pedophilia has fantasies and thoughts, more so than, and if I\u2019m off base here let me know, more so than \u201cI\u2019m excited to have this fantasy.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nYes, yeah, I mean when I was first sort of like realizing my attraction and everything, I would have dreams. I would have really vivid dreams and I would wake up horrified with myself, and I\u2019ve heard that experience from other people too and when you are around a kid that you think is cute and you\u2019re not really even thinking about anything and just knowing how you feel and sort of being disgusted by it is a pretty common experience.<\/p>\n
\nWe have heard folks also say, \u201cA fantasy is a fantasy. A fantasy isn\u2019t acting on and so I want to acknowledge that too that I understand as well that a fantasy is one thing. It\u2019s different from an action. And so for those individuals who are listening to our podcast who say, \u201cWell wait a minute, Candice,\u201d or \u201cWait a minute, Beth, what\u2019s wrong with having a fantasy?\u201d I\u2019m not judging the fantasy, what I\u2019m talking about is we actually talk to quite a bit of folks who have pedophilia who say, \u201cIt\u2019s not fun for me. It actually causes me to stress when I\u2019m having these thoughts and fantasies.\u201d And there\u2019s a lot of reasons for why there is a cause of distress and the experience of those who share it with us is that it\u2019s not necessarily enjoyable; it is causing distress, and so that\u2019s why I wanted us to talk about that and I really appreciate that you bringing up the mindfulness piece. We offer a psychoeducational call-in support group globally and we offer tools. We don\u2019t do process therapy because we\u2019re global. We do have people that come to our program for individual therapy and couple\u2019s therapy where we do process therapy. On our call-in group (we) provide tools to offer folks support that are more psychoeducational in nature. And so one of those that you shared, here are some tools when you are struggling that you can use, and that\u2019s a really basic one, that mindfulness, but it is beneficial and there\u2019s a lot of research out there to back that as well. So as a female anti-contact non-offending pedophile, if there are other females that are listening to this podcast who can say \u201cYes, I believe I\u2019m a pedophile,\u201d what would your advice be to them to support them in this process?<\/p>\n
\nI would definitely seek out other female pedophiles. I think the way that women and men see their own sexuality, I think they\u2019ve been taught to see it very differently, so I think that experience of realizing and acknowledging sort of like a paraphilia or some sort of unusual sexual interest is going to be a very different experience, and sharing that with people that have also experienced it can be really therapeutic. I guess I just want people to understand that it\u2019s not something that we exactly picked. It\u2019s not an attraction to predatory behavior. It is what it is. It\u2019s just an attraction like any other and I just want to thank you for your effort to both educate yourself and other people, because that education, that change in language it\u2019s going to make a big difference for innocent people that deserve for something that they didn\u2019t choose to effect their life so much and their health and they just deserve to be healthy.<\/p>\n
\nI agree and you are so welcome and thank you for having the courage to be on our podcast today. It definitely takes courage to speak up and this is one of my passions, giving voices to the voiceless. I hope our paths cross again, Beth, and I really appreciate you being on our podcast today. I know I said that before, but thank you again.<\/p>\n
\nThank you. No problem.<\/p>\n
\nThe Prevention Podcast is looking to interview individuals who are anti-contact non-offending pedophiles on the autism spectrum. We are also looking to interview anti-contact non-offending pedophiles who are married or in a committed relationship. We would love to interview you and your spouse. Go to thepreventionproject.org and e-mail me if you\u2019re interested and these apply to you. Thanks.<\/p>\n