{"id":725,"date":"2018-11-22T21:16:44","date_gmt":"2018-11-22T21:16:44","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/aboutpedophilia.com\/?p=725"},"modified":"2018-11-22T21:16:44","modified_gmt":"2018-11-22T21:16:44","slug":"ppodcast-transcript-evert","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/aboutpedophilia.com\/2018\/11\/22\/ppodcast-transcript-evert\/","title":{"rendered":"TGPP Transcript: Evert"},"content":{"rendered":"

Note: This transcript was transcribed by Gonzalo Urritia<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Candice:<\/p>\n

Welcome to the prevention podcast, I’m your host, Candice Christiansen. Our goal, at the prevention podcast, is to talk about dicey, controversial issues related to preventing sexual abuse. Why? Because it needs to be said. Topics include the biology of pedophilia, risk, need and responsivity principles related to non-contact and contact sex offenders, researchers in the field of sex offender treatment, and more.<\/p>\n

Join us bi-weekly, and let’s talk about it.<\/p>\n

\n

Meg: Welcome to The Prevention Podcast, this is Meg Martinez Detamonte, your host and I am here with Evert, who is a non-offending minor-attracted person, using the term NOMAP. Hi, Evert.<\/p>\n

Evert: Hello.<\/p>\n

Meg: So good to have you on our show today.<\/p>\n

Evert: Yeah, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here.<\/p>\n

Meg: Of course. So, I just introduced you as a nomap and that\u2019s kind of where I wanted to start because recently we\u2019ve been getting a lot of people asking us why we use the term map, minor-attracted person and even the term nomap which stands for non-offending minor-attracted person. And Evert, you are pretty adamant about using this term in the place of pedophilia, or even anti-contact pedophiles so I was wondering if you\u2019ll share that. What is the term nomap mean to you?<\/p>\n

Evert: In fact, it\u2019s more a rational word, a statement I make that I am attracted to minors, little girls, but that I am not offending in any way and I always have done that. It is more a term used by science than in normal life. Most people use the term pedophile but we see that the term pedophile is hijacked by criminals and society to talk about abusers. And I am not an abuser, I am a person attracted to children, girls.<\/p>\n

So the term map does give me a platform to speak about it and also to speak to people who are also attracted to minors but maybe not prepubescent children, like I am. So it is a more general word used in the community to talk about people with our feelings without the pain or the difficulty of the conflation which society has.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg- That was very beautifully said. We here at The Prevention Project agree and that\u2019s why we also use this term. First and foremost we find this term in the literature, the research literature as<\/p>\n

well as people are studying a variety of individuals who are attracted to minors and as you very eloquently put it\u2019s not all about prepubescent children which is what pedophilia represents.<\/p>\n

I also love that you shared that the term pedophile is hijacked to be described or to use towards people who have actually offended or abused children when in fact, as we\u2019ve said many, many times on this podcast somebody that\u2019s attracted to children does not always go on offending or has to go on offending and can very much be committed to non-offending and to sharing that mission and vision.<\/p>\n

Which again is beautifully said by you in that the term nomap is actually a statement and a platform for you. It\u2019s a statement of you saying I am attracted to children but I\u2019m committed to non-offending.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: So between us I still call myself pedophile, because it states my form of attraction.<\/p>\n

Meg: Right, yeah.<\/p>\n

Evert: I don\u2019t use \u201cgirl-lover\u201d because it is mostly used to sell child porn. It\u2019s a pity that the pedophile is used to shame on other people who are not liked. Like sometimes in politics you hear these words or in society that opponents are called pedophile without actually being pedophiles. So that\u2019s why I call it highjacked.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: And I think that\u2019s a really great point because we do get a lot of people who are either trolling, but sometimes people who are just generally curious and say \u201cHey, why are we using this term, map, and not just calling them what they are, pedophiles.\u201d And so I actually think it\u2019s great to hear you say \u201cWell hey, I do identify with the word pedophile because I\u2019m a person who is attracted to prepubescent children, that would be a pedophile.<\/p>\n

But I don\u2019t agree with the fact that this word is hijacked and so I\u2019m gonna also call myself a map so that I can, and more specifically nomap, so that I can very much state to the world that I\u2019m a non-offending minor-attracted person. And so I do see and I want other people to see that map is definitely this umbrella term and somebody could still identify as a pedophile and a map.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: One of the things we often hear is about the normalization of pedophilia. Our agenda is absolutely not \u201cnormalization of pedophilia\u201d, that\u2019s far away. We just want a little air to breathe.<\/p>\n

Society is going to regulate things just to prevent children, of course it\u2019s important and it is good to take actions against abuse. But if it also means that some people in society are taken away any point of living, any space of living, any place to be and feel safe then I think these rules are missing a very important point.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: I would say that sometimes we are doing more harm than good when we highjack labels like pedophile and lump people all into the same category instead of getting to know people in individual basis and helping the people who need help and who don\u2019t want to offend.<\/p>\n

Our founder Candace Christianson said this several times, that why not help people and treat people who are seeking help regardless of who or what they\u2019re attracted to. Why would we not help them? And so I love how you said using the term map can at least give us some room so that we can breathe a little and let people know \u201cI\u2019m minor-attracted but I\u2019m not an offender. I have no desire to offend, I\u2019m very aware of society\u2019s laws, I actually am an advocate for child sexual abuse prevention and that\u2019s me, I can be all of those things.\u201d<\/p>\n

Evert: Yes, and I hope that some child-abuse prevention organizations start realizing that it is not the pedophile who\u2019s the opponent. It might even be the pedophile who can also be part of the community to keep children safe. They might be a risk but if we can control that risk and we can make the risk in a way less harmful then I think we have some good things gained.<\/p>\n

And we are not opponents, we are in a way just like you, we love children, we want to protect them, we want them to be happy. And it\u2019s unfortunate that in a situation where children might be I might get aroused but that doesn\u2019t mean that I will act on it. If I\u2019m on the playground maybe some men might be aroused by the mothers who stand there, I don\u2019t know, but you don\u2019t act on it.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: I agree, I couldn\u2019t agree more. We often hear people who for some reason fuse impulsivity with minor-attraction, thinking that all people who have a minor-attracted orientation are these ticking time-bombs that are going to offend and the reality is from what we\u2019ve seen, all of the minor-attracted people that we\u2019ve worked with have this capacity to control themselves just like any other person who\u2019s attracted to an adult.<\/p>\n

And so I\u2019m really glad that you bring that up. And it leads me to go back to something that you said earlier about how you actually are acknowledging that there\u2019s some risk and so I think that that\u2019s something that people don\u2019t hear a lot. They think \u201cWell they\u2019re using the term map or nomap and they\u2019re saying that there\u2019s no risk.\u201d And so you\u2019re acknowledging that people that have minor-attractions can be of risk.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: We are just as much risk as any other one, if we look at persons who abuse children they\u2019re not only pedophiles. If it was I would be happy but it isn\u2019t. People who abuse children have several forms of sexual attraction. They have several backgrounds, they can be male or female, they can be Christian or another religion. It is the person which is the problem and I am a person and I have a certain risk and it is mostly that in a point where the self-control is lacking that a risk<\/p>\n

can become a danger. So keep people on the safe side by making them strong in awareness, strong in their own self-esteem and strong in self-control. That is the point I\u2019m trying to make. That is how we could take part in the prevention.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: Absolutely, so you\u2019re saying that it doesn\u2019t really matter the person\u2019s orientation or the person\u2019s attraction or not, what matters more is what\u2019s going on individually when it comes to self-control, self-esteem, shame and other symptoms that may participate in a person deciding to act out and offend against a child.<\/p>\n

Evert: Yes, and unfortunately we notice that many peers are in that middle state. They don\u2019t have that self-esteem, they are ashamed, they hide away on several forms like marriage or live alone in a house outside society. I think that every psychiatrist or psychologist would mean that these people might have mental health risks.<\/p>\n

Meg: When you say peers are you talking about other people who have come out as minor-attracted that you\u2019re aware of?<\/p>\n

Evert: Yes.<\/p>\n

Meg: So talking about that community of people who come out as minor-attracted, Evert, share with me what you think the difference between a pro-contact map and an anti-contact or a nomap is.<\/p>\n

Evert: Well, pedophilia is simply the attraction, the sexual or romantic attraction towards prepubescent children. And if they are older they\u2019re called hebephiles or something. The feelings are always the same, the age might vary and the appearance of the child might vary but the feelings are always a certain attraction and maybe a form of arousal or fantasy. That is all the same. The difference between pro-contact is that they actually want to act on these feelings, they want to act on their fantasies.<\/p>\n

They want to act on their urges. And they decide to let their interest prevail above the other. While a nomap or anti-contact pedophile is actually choosing to let the interest of children stand above their own wish simply because they see that a small amount of joy doesn\u2019t weigh up to the damage that would be done. It\u2019s very simple. It doesn\u2019t have to do anything with law or fear for police or whatever. It is the simple fact that you love a child and the child is more important than yourself. If you love another you want them to be happy and safe. And so I choose to be not-acting on it.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: Thank you so much for sharing that, I love how you put it. and I think it\u2019s good for our listeners to hear it stated in that way in that it\u2019s not always just about fear of legal action, it\u2019s truly for a lot of nomaps about putting the interest of a child above their own, which in many circles is prevention. You know, it\u2019s prevention of how do we keep these children safe and happy and healthy and prevent any harm or abuse.<\/p>\n

So I appreciate you sharing that. Just connecting this to what you said earlier, you also shared that there are people that are kind of in between you were saying, that are isolated and not necessarily on this pro-contact bandwagon where they\u2019re acting out but they\u2019re not necessarily involved in a community that is very much believing in non-offending or anti-contact principles like you are.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: We actually don\u2019t know how many people with minor-attraction there are on this world, because most are hiding. And pro-contacts speak out and hurt and you see them on television, so everyone gets aroused or gets hating about what they\u2019re seeing and if we want to speak out we are blocked, we are denied any access of platforms.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s very difficult to get these people in this middle who are hiding and looking outward to show that there are other alternatives. That there are ways to live happy and still feel happy and a little bit honorable about who you are. That these feelings are not a horror but actually are part of yourself. And that you can act strongly in society with these feelings. Many pedophiles who aren\u2019t shown might work already with children in jobs or they help children in a wonderful way, they never act out in a sexual way. But you don\u2019t see them.<\/p>\n

And my fear is if a person in this situation, in this hiding is getting into mental problems by whatever, it could be people who become depressed by society, by problems on work or other things. If they get into low self-esteem and low mental state they become a risk without knowing it. They might act on it without knowing it.<\/p>\n

They might hurt a child and see it happen while they\u2019re doing it and then, actually I write it many times, if we can in any way prevent a pedophile or a map or a person who is attracted to children, even heterosexuals or homosexuals who feel attracted to children, if we can prevent them to act out we save two lives. It\u2019s not only the life of the child. What would happen with a person who has done this? How can he live with himself? What would society do? So that\u2019s important to me.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: Right, and it\u2019s important to us too here at The Prevention Project and as a program created by an abuse survivor, we believe just as well that we are creating hope for two lives. We\u2019re creating prevention for children who may be at risk to be harmed, and then we are also creating hope for people who are at risk to harm children.<\/p>\n

And I know that we\u2019ve spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about our program that treats maps or people who are minor-attracted who don\u2019t want to offend against children, but we also treat a variety of other people who are at risk for creating victims. Adult victims or child victims because we do believe that that life matters as well, the life of the person who is struggling.<\/p>\n

So I love that you\u2019re bringing this up Evert and sharing your goal, and it sounds like your goal and your mission is to reach these people who are in hiding and to give them a sense of community to where they feel accepted enough to open up about what\u2019s going on with them and seek the help that they need. How are you doing that?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: Well, the first thing is you have be visible, you have to be known, and that is difficult so I want to emphasize that what you are doing is actually so important, it\u2019s not important for me to speak out like I\u2019m rallying for an important position, it is most important that these words reach people and make them think about \u201cmaybe I should reach peers and I don\u2019t seek peers on porn sites, I will find criminals who want to make money out of me.\u201d<\/p>\n

No, I want to find platforms where they can speak safely with pedophiles or other maps about their feelings so that they can understand what they are and can maybe ask questions or whatever. What you are doing is so important, you\u2019re spreading the word. And that is prevention indeed.<\/p>\n

Meg: Well thank you so much for saying that.<\/p>\n

Evert: Thank you very much for doing this.<\/p>\n

Meg: Well that kind of leads to another question that I wanted to ask you, because as we\u2019re wrapping up our season we\u2019re wrapping up our interviews and our podcast producer was like \u201cYou need to interview Evert\u201d so here we are doing that and I wanted to ask you why this podcast was so important to you and why you were so interested in being a part of it with us.<\/p>\n

Well in a way I already said it, why I find it important, these words need to be spread. It\u2019s not important that my words but people who are feeling attraction to children and maybe they\u2019re in doubt if they are or not. They have to be able to find a way to speak about it and to find out. And that\u2019s why your platform is so important and I myself have been in this mental state which was very disturbing.<\/p>\n

I really lived in a double life, in one way I felt fully confused about myself and on the other hand I had to support a family. And I had difficulties and I had to fight myself out and I had help from peers on the good side. So now I am almost fully accepted myself as a pedophile.<\/p>\n

(Laughs) Almost.<\/p>\n

There are sometimes that I had a little bit of self-censorship. Would I take pictures or not, whether can I look at children or not, but in a way I feel glad that I reached this point and I want to share this possibility for everyone. And that makes me give so much energy.<\/p>\n

That is my mission in a way.<\/p>\n

Meg: Yeah and we love having you here to share your experiences, I think a lot of our listeners that are maps and nomaps share that thought that you had about \u201cIt feels like I was living a double life and it feels like I\u2019m in hiding\u201d, I think a lot of people can relate to that and I mean I guess what I would also say is, what would you say to some of those maps that are in hiding, that don\u2019t agree with the pro-contact voices out there but maybe feel too afraid to go under the label of map or nomap and speak out on public forums or on social media or even to their intimate, close family circles. What would you say to some of those maps that are in hiding and aren\u2019t sure of what to do?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: The first thing you have to do is don\u2019t fight yourself, you will lose. You have to take and accept what you are. There is no one who changed these feelings, who can cope with them, you can use them even positively but we can\u2019t deny them, you can\u2019t hide like I did.<\/p>\n

I tried to live as heterosexual, I looked at adult porn and had sex with my wife. Looking back it was all nothing more than a theater. It didn\u2019t satisfy and they must understand that situation. So to get out and get happy like I am now means to accept what you are and try to find ways to speak to us. Come with questions you have, you\u2019re not a monster, you\u2019re just a person like any other, one who has a sexual feeling and the only difficulty is some people don\u2019t like that.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: And I think that this process of accepting who you are is how we\u2019ve come up with so many different words and names and labels for it as we discussed earlier because I think it helps people to realize \u201cOk, this is what an actual pedophile is\u201d. You know, scientifically if you will, and this is what a minor-atracted person is, and this is what an exclusive minor-attracted person is, and non-exclusive minor-attracted is, I think it\u2019s in our nature to create these labels so that people can go through that process of acceptance.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: Of course. But one thing that\u2019s also very difficult is when I speak to a heterosexual they will listen with their heterosexual background, they will see everything from the side of a heterosexual. And if I talk about my feelings to a peer I don\u2019t need much words. He immediately understands. And that\u2019s why they must seek out peers. You can\u2019t explain it to a normal heterosexual. Certainly not a few haven\u2019t reached the situation of putting your feelings in words.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: What I do think is that people that have this sense of support, more often are able to accept what\u2019s going on inside them and talk about it and be more aware, as you\u2019ve mentioned. Be more aware of what\u2019s going on inside them and how they can control their thoughts and their behaviors and their emotions to a degree.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: Actually, you have build up a motivation not to harm children. And when you\u2019re confused you don\u2019t have that motivation, it\u2019s broken into pieces. So you have to repair it, and you have to have a clear view in life about how you want to live your life as pedophile or as a minor-attracted person.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: This podcast, I do appreciate you sharing so much about your story and your vision and mission and purpose going forward as an advocate for nomaps and as a peer, really, to anybody that\u2019s experiencing these feelings so that they can feel like they\u2019re not alone and I think that drives and definitely contributes to our purpose which was to truly bring light to those in the dark, and so in closing I just wonder if there is anything else that you want to share, not only to maps out there but to the world, about this topic. As we seek to bring light to those in the dark.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Evert: Well, I want to state one thing also, because it also is important about the situation. We as map activists, I don\u2019t really think I\u2019m an activist but I\u2019m speaking out, we are always told that we want to be part of the LGBT community.<\/p>\n

And in a way you see immediately reactions from this community revolving or almost disgusting and the fact that we want to be part of that, I think we are not at that moment yet, we still have to find a way to simply be here instead of be openly and with right in society and I hope that many, many LGBT persons don\u2019t feel endangered by us, we don\u2019t have such thoughts or agenda.<\/p>\n

And they themselves must understand that they sometimes have the same routes, same way to go to accept themselves or find a way to live with their feelings. We have so much in common and I think \u201cI don\u2019t want your help, the only thing I ask is don\u2019t be an obstacle, give us the space to make our own way out\u201d. And I think that it\u2019s also important to know, for people who have been or are part of the LGBT community, another thing I think is I want to speak out to people who are responsible for making laws or decisions on these things, that with fear and disgust you don\u2019t make good decisions.<\/p>\n

If we look at all the policies there are, we hardly see any effect. And I hope really as many people like you and others say, let\u2019s take another way. The way of prevention. And I hope the people start changing their minds and we get on this way of prevention and we certainly will support that.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Meg: And you know, we couldn\u2019t agree more with your last  statement, the way of prevention and that\u2019s exactly why we choose to do the work that we do and choose to have this podcast and guests like you on it who truly believe that prevention is the  intervention and prevention is actually the answer, and so again, Evert, we really appreciate you coming and being on this podcast and dedicating your time, I know you said that you\u2019re not an activist but I would also call you one, you\u2019re out here speaking out and sharing your mission and doing so to help others and again to move forward with this mission and vision of prevention and we so appreciate you being on our show today.<\/p>\n

Evert: Well, thank you too for letting me speak out and giving me the opportunity to help others. Because that\u2019s also part of my big wish in life is to help others and not harm them.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Candice: Thank you for listening to this week\u2019s podcast. Please visit thepreventionproject.org to learn more about our project and programs. Please remember to subscribe to our podcast at<\/p>\n

www.thepreventionpodcast.com<\/a> or iTunes. See you next time!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Note: This transcript was transcribed by Gonzalo Urritia. Candice: Welcome to the prevention podcast, I’m your host, Candice Christiansen. Our goal, at the prevention podcast, is to talk about dicey, controversial issues related to preventing sexual abuse. Why? Because it needs to be said. 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